Question on mutations......

[lgmice]

I am new to chins and am reading all I can on them. Putting the pet store thread together with the thread on mutation colors.... I understand that you want to breed the best quality that you can, and that for various reasons the mutation colors are more difficult to breed for quality. I also read a statement on one of these threads that even top breeders complain about the quality of mutation colors. Considering you have to breed back to standards to maintain the best quality, at what point do you decide that a mutation color is not of breeding quality? I mean, if you must breed back to a standard to recover quality that has been lost, do you consider a non-showable mutation as breedable? Or once a mutation color loses its quality to the point that it is no longer showable, do you consider that line to be lost and quality is not recoverable? Or does breeding back to a nice show quality grey reverse the mutation breeding? (Assuming that the ONLY reason for the lack of quality in the mutation chin is due to mutation to mutation breeding.)

charlene

[Riven]

Technically you can breed mutation to mutation and always have nice chins, mutations don't cause bad quality, they are ... "prone to it" they have tendencies to be weaker, some mutations anyway.
Unless and animal is one of a handfull left of a very rare mutation and is not showable (say 2nd or better) it should be sold as pet not be bred. It is easier to lose good traits and to lose bad traits and you'd put more time and "wasted offspring" into a bad animal than just finding a better animal. If a mutation is losing it's quality to the point that it's not good enough to be considered for the show table or grading tables it's not breedable.

When breeding you can figure this equation, one offspring will be better than the parents, two the same quality, and one lesser. Breeding back a standard doesn't automatically mean improving the mutation. There are no guarantees in breeding animals on what you'll produce, but it's something you wouldn't want to put on the show table it's not something that you should breed in general.

Mutation to mutation breeding does not cause poor quality animals if done with extreme consideration and knowledge, it does increase the chance for lesser qualities simply because most of them tend to have less desirable traits before breeding. Even with a standard breeding a weak furred animal to a weak furred animal will only produce weak furred animals.

Hope that made sense...

[crazy4chins]

Breeding mutation to mutation lowers the quality of the mutation and the line .and breeding multiple mutations together only compounds the problem.
The whites and the violets tend to have weak fur. Breed them together and and you compound the problem.
If this is not the case when has a multiple mutation ever won GSC. I am sure that it may have happened. But I would guess that the number of times it has happened is very slim compared to the number of multi- mutation chins shown each and every year.
Every year there is a higher percentage of multiple mutation chins being shown. But the number of the top show chins that are multiple mutations hasn't increased. Why not? If it as some claim and mute to mute breeding doesn't decrease the quality. If multiple mutation chins where of the same quality. The dramatic increase in numbers shown should be reflected in the number of top multimutation hybrids at shows but that isn't the case.
Even if you breed two top quality mutations together your chances of the kits being better quality then either or both parents is slim to none.

[Riven]

I'm going to have to disagree with that. Technically anything that's not standard is a mutation, including blacks, eb's and beiges, with that aside, a pink white is a double mutation and you can find a lot of really nice pink whites. Which is just an example.

[crazy4chins]

Disagree all you want. The number of double mutes at shows has increased dramatically over the last few years. while the number of top quality mutes has not.
All the top Pink whites that I am aware of are either the result of a Top quality Beige /top quality White mating Or the result of a Top quality Pink white mated to a standard. They aren't the result of a pink white to beige mating. wich goes against your agruement that you can mate Mute to Mute and always have nice chins.

[Riven]

Can I ask what exactly is a beige or a white is classified as if not mutations?

I guess my question is do you ask every person who has a winning mutation what their backgrounds are? Or are you just assuming by going off of people you know... to say something goes against someone arguement you usually have proof. If I recall correctly the champ or reserve champ for pink whites at ECBC national show was a pink white out of a beige and a white...

And secondly I never said always, you just said I did, you can breed the two nicest any kind of chins in the world an always have crap...

[Riven]

Forgot to add, that maybe you should re-read the whole thread, I never said that mute to mute doesn't decrease anything, I said:
Mutation to mutation breeding does not cause poor quality animals if done with extreme consideration and knowledge, it does increase the chance for lesser qualities simply because most of them tend to have less desirable traits before breeding.
Thus saying it doesn't always create lesser animals, but has more chance to.

[crazy4chins]

A few quotes from your first post"You can breed mutation to mutaion and always have nice chins" "mutation to mutation breeding does not cause poor quality animals."

If either of these where the the case You would be able to Breed top quality Mute to top quality mute for generation after generation with out any loss of quality. And that is not the case. A beige and a white can be bred together for a single genrwtion and still produce a qualty chin. But if this hybrid mute where to be bred to another mute or another hybrid mute 90+ percent of the time you would not produce a kit that was even the same quality as either parent. So why not bred quality standards into mutations every generation for dominants and every other for recessives, and have a much higher percentage of producing quality kits rather then breed mute to mute for genration on end hoping to produce that one fluke.

[Shuboyje]

I have to agree with Luke here. There is way too much mute to mute breeding going on, and not enough quality mutes around to support it. Unfortunately the show system is not helping, as the mutes are not being judged to the same standard as the standards, lol(no pun intended). If you want proof of that, I for years now have advocated a "Open Class" show in which there is no form of classification. It would be a 10 class show just like ECBC. You would end up with standards and violets and whites and beiges all in one class together. That would force the mutes to be judged on the same criteria, and effectively judge them more accurately. I have told this idea to many top breeders, and although they agree it will yield more accurate results, they also agree it will never happen. Why? Because most "top quality" mutes would get 3rds and 4th when judged on par with the standards, and the hobbiest who's purchases are driving the industry right now love mutes and would not be happy.

[Angel]

reserve champ for pink whites at ECBC national show was a pink white out of a beige and a white...

He was reserve... And that was my chin. I was told when I picked him up that dad (the white) was out of a beige and a white. Mom however was from a beige and a standard.

If this was just a fluke, then how come his brother is just as good (if not better). I do not have his brother, but I see him every now and then. His brother was a white.

I really didn't want to get into this, however..... I've asked ranchers "If this is my male, what would you put to this?" (Most of the time, this is for a white male) and there responces were, "Standard, Beige, maybe a Black velvet." Some will even say a nice sapphire female, :lol: mostly because they know sapphires are what I'm into. BUT This is only if the male is good enough to make an outcross.