"Name brand" chins

[crittercrazy76]

I recently had a situation where a chin I bought as a "name brand" chin turned out to be a completely different animal than the one I got the cage card for. The male I thought I was buying was a white chocolate from Somiva (not bought by me from Somiva, but from another generally well trusted breeder) with lots of eb in his background but absolutely no tov for 4 generations according to his cage card. The actual chin I got , pictured below, was a TOV white chocolate (from who knows where), but I didn't know this (due to the white masking the tov gene to an extent, and because I trusted the person I got him from to be honest) until after he had died and I sold his only girlfriend only to have her pop a little tov kit shortly afterwards. I did get a better color than I thought I had but obviously not the animal I thought I was buying and had I known more about him my whole breeding plan with him would have been so totally different (maybe non-existent even), and many decisions I made concerning him and his kits would have changed as well. I'm right on the edge of scratching out every breeder name on every cage card I own and just start selling the chins by what pedigree I know personally. No more going on what the seller told me unless I get it directly from that breeder. I'm so ticked about this I could scream :angry:

How many of you have run into similar situations and do you feel it is right to sell chins as "quality" just based on the pedigree you got from the person you bought the parents from, or the "big breeder" names on it? Just think of how easy it is for someone to say a chin is from Ritterspach/Ryerson/JAGS/Somiva/PNWC/etc etc. or any other big breeder that it really isn't, just to get more $$$.

[Chingal]

Heather,

ALOT of big ranchers do not distunguish TOV in their mutation lines only black velvets, brown velvets, Ones where TOV is very obvious, and alot of them just put "black" on the pedigree not black velvet or TOV. Since Ebony and White can both mask TOV especially in a kit alot of them leave it off.. TOV is a pattern gene not a color gene so it is not usually a huge problem in whites or ebonies or tans..
My geuss it is is the animal you agreed to purchase and you did not necessarily get screwed.. I prefer TOV in my tans as it makes ofr a heavier pattern of tan and white and a richer chocolatier tan color..This is where you come in and know your color pattern and see where as the chin ages that you have a TOV animal.. TOV shows later.. IF that is the chin in question I would love to know what mom is as unless he has a very solid tanspot on him somewhere he looks very much like just a white tan not TOV to me.
There are a few ranchers that yes based on the pedigree and the breeder I purchase them from that if it has the parents I know I am getting a decent animal.. Somavia is one of those breeders.. His pet quality is still better than most others.. Of course we all prefer show winners or picks form a show line ,but with Somavia parents you are getting a decent breeding animal no matter where he picked it from..Ryersons are another and PNWC was primarily Somavia breeding..

[Spoof]

for someone to say a chin is from Ritterspach/Ryerson/JAGS/Somiva/PNWC/etc etc. or any other big breeder that it really isn't, just to get more $$$.I see this quite a bit. I'm sure everyone remembers one particular messy incedent up here involving it.

However, Trinity is right, most don't track Tov, and he really does not look like a Tov animal. I consider it a huge bonus when I find that in my tan/eb white lines. I didn't know Somovia bred Tov whites, let alone tan or 'chocolate' whites.

To avoid the issue entirely, I've decided my entire herd is going to Seattle to get graded by two different breeders. That will give me an honest opinion on the quality I have, and the buyer an honest opinion on the animal. When I do list them I will include the breeders names with the animals, at let people make their own decisions. The graders will NOT know where the animals came from nor who bred them until we are done. (I am actually going to find this amusing, because I do have a couple of the breeder's animals that they don't know I have). :)

[crittercrazy76]

Well, I do feel better now knowing that some bigger breeders don't track tov. I really did trust the person I bought this male from and was more concerned that maybe she had been screwed and sold him to me as what she bought him from going on the word of a third party kind of thing, and not knowing herself. Anyway, to answer your question about the mom, she was a standard ec and definitely not tov so it had to come from this male. I too couldn't see tov on him, but have been told that white (and black sometimes) can do a real good job of masking tov. Had I known then what I know now, this guy would definitley have had more than one girl with him though lol. Darn it anyway :p

I think a lot of the time the bigger breeders sell out their lower quality and people snatch them up because of the breeder's name but aren't getting quite the quality the breeder is so well known for because they don't know the right questions to ask. I think most of the big breeders are generally honest when describing their oppinion of the quality of their animals they are selling but if you don't know what to ask you may buy a trait you really don't want but just can't see... if that makes sense.

I would also LOVE the opportunity you are getting Spoof, and am very curious how things work out.

I do think that some breeder's animals definitely warrent the higher prices, but would you pay more for one JUST based on the breeder?

[Alecia]

Well... perhaps. Let's say I want to get a standard from Bowen. I might be able to find a standard from a small hobby breeder that looks the same as the one I'd get from Bowen, but without that "Bowen" name attached. What you are paying for is the history and assurance that the "Bowen" name carries with it, and not necessarily the quality. In that situation, I just might go for the name bonus. It helps bring credence to your herd. I know that this might spark a rise, but it's the truth. That said, I *did* breed a Bowen standard (Lani's) to a hobby breeder chin - That's how I wound up with Thumper, who so far, is a really good-looking little guy. But then, what chin isn't at 1 week!! LOL :)

I like that Bertie is a Bowen. He looks VERY much the same as my own standard, Dante, but Dante's background is unknown, and while he's now just about 6 years old with perfect health and lovely physical attributes, he does not have the background and ranch name that Bertie does. If I were simply judging by looks alone, I could have just gone with Dante. I have been told I could/should many times. Despite not knowing his background, he has been approved for breeding by *many* well-known members of the chin community, both online and those I know in person. Having reached his age without any signs of hereditary problems, both of our vets have okayed it as well.

But... Bertie is a Bowen. What sounds better to an informed buyer? Background unknown or Bowen animal? Even though *I* know that the qualities are the same, and that both are clear for genetic problems, I cannot *make* a buyer believe/understand this. What the "Bowen" name gives is assurance. Do I like this? I have mixed feelings. *I* know that my Dante is a lovely animal and would give great things to any offspring. But, as a buyer, I am leery of buying animals with parental background unknown, unless I know the breeder very well and am assured of his/her integrity.

All other things aside, if you're selling chins at all, you know that having a "name brand" animal will help you in the long run as well, not just in qualities, but in selling value and general demand.

Now, no one go crazy, these are just opinions. Of course there is the other side of this argument too, that people will tag on the names just for $$ value - that does happen too! Just make sure you are one of the "good" guys. :)

First picture is Dante, second is Bertie.

[Megan.]

but have been told that white (and black sometimes) can do a real good job of masking tov
Was anything in his pedigree labled "Black" black is NOT ebony. If you hear someone talking about a black animal, they mean a Black Velvet... Most ranchers will call their Black Velvets blacks.

I wonder if even though the last recorded TOV animal was 4 generations ago, if it was passed on unknown, so you just happened to get an added bonus.

[crittercrazy76]

Was anything in his pedigree labled "Black" black is NOT ebony. If you hear someone talking about a black animal, they mean a Black Velvet... Most ranchers will call their Black Velvets blacks.

I wonder if even though the last recorded TOV animal was 4 generations ago, if it was passed on unknown, so you just happened to get an added bonus.There is only "ebony, het. ebony, standard, white mosaic, tan, ebony wm, and tan &white" in his ped in those exact words. No tov or "black" for any of them and I have 4 generations listed (some of those colors are multiple if you are trying to count lol). I've also seen the black velvets called blacks so when the tov kit was born I went right back to the dad's ped card to look since I knew he was the only possable father to this kit and I know TOV can't be carried so I knew it definitely didn't come from mom. I had 5 kits born here by this male and only have 1 still with me that I thought was just a nice veiled tan but now that I look at him after all of this I know he is tov too. I just didn't even think of that possability until now but I am sure glad I kept him now lol.

[Chingal]

I would love to see pics of these kits! AS I still say Tov is carried and a tricky little gene when crossed with ebony or white , mom has ebony in her.. Could very well have tov, so could dad.. IF that male has any PNWC chin names,You can PM them to me I can certainly try find out if they are tov or not...I am pretty familiar with Dea's herd. I have seen many hetero ebs look like poorly veiled tov ebs and tov ebs look like het ebs.. so If the kits are in fact tov in all reality it could come from anywhere...

[bear]

well bertie's picture is certainly sharp, i'd buy one of his kits! :)

[bear]

at the same time, i do see and recognise the "name brands" as i look through ads... the ideal situation, i think, is to be able to look at and handle a breeder's stock and evaluate the animals yourself before choosing to buy. what with cross-country buying, and railroading, etc. that's tough.