Outcrossing lines - GOOD or BAD??

[chincolores]

Thought I'd start this new thread and hopefully get some insight on how well people have been doing on outcrossing their lines?? Especially those that show. Have you run across any problems?? Are the successes out weighing the failures and how many generations has it taken to get something that you are proud of to show??

Since mutation breeding relies heavilly on a good standard within it's background and the mutation breeding can get really confusing for some.......please explain it really good. Especially the "why" you decided on the two animals to be bred together?? Myself, I really enjoy putting Bowen and Somavia animals together. I started this thread to hear about some lines that I don't have too much access to or many of. I don't want this to get into an East coast West Coast thing at all either.......just talking aniamls - their attributes, that seem to be different in every line.

So whats worked and what hasn't???

[Chingal]

Pam,

As you well know my sapphires were pretty heavily inbred when I received them and for the last 2.5 years it has been a constant outcrossing, my first goal was to outcross all my pur sapphires to good big blocky Somavia Ebonies. Then I took those carriers and crossed them to Ryerson sapphires as they are nicely furred for a recessive and have great body confirmation , this year was the 3rd generation of this in which I got healthy strong Solid white sapphires. They are young yet but are showing great improvement. I think when outcrossing you must remember patientence and that is a hard one for me..I got so mad at my sapphires last year I gave them away..LOL...

With my ebonies ( they had alot of Tan bred into them) I tok them back to strong Somavia hetero ebs, whites, and BV's and Meadowbrook Ebs, and now thanks to you a great standard eb carrier. WE are awaiting the results of the second generation this spring ,but so far the first has been a remarkable improvement.



My whole thing is knowing each animals strengths and weaknesses and deciding who fits where. IT got kind of mixed up with having to basically sell out this fall to a bare minimum of animals ,so when I get full bore back into this I am excited to see where and what I need to go with...

I too like the Bowen Somavia cross... MY tov beige and pink white produced such a little doll!! And htat Bowen somavia white you sold me which is now coming home to you is to die for!

[JAGS]

It can work out terrible, but once you start figuiring out what works best with what, you are off to the races and the top of the show table. When I started my herd I bought alot of top animals from all over the country, (spending way to much money) figuiring that putting the best with the best would give me great. What I was missing was the fact that the best still have flaws and genetic tendencies to them and when crossed wrong the best with the best gave me junk! By attending many shows and working with some very knowledgable people I now know what I was missing and have learned what to look for in what I pair up. Sure its not 100% but it its done me a world of good. To acomplish this you need to get so you know what you are looking for in an animal and then once in breeding heavly document what you end up with out of them. Some of the trends shock me to this day.

[chincolores]

One thing I've been told by MANY a rancher that's been to the top of the table.....
find a chin that has ONE flaw and fix it!! You won't spend the super bucks and you'll learn something in the meantime too!!

Jags - Do you still go home maybe after a show and break up any breedings you had together, after you heard the judges comments?? Maybe you don't, since you have so many, but for most of us - we don't have so many and need to reorganize what we have to work with. I found myself doing that a few times. I guess the barn blindness set in?? :)

[JAGS]

There are times I take an animal to show (much to my wifes disspleasure) more out of what its out of than anything else, only to have it hammered on when on the table. Then come home and try remating the parants of that animal to get some thing better the next time.

[Chingal]

hehehe.I am soooo guilty of coming home and selling like 10-15 chins because after showing them I realize they do not fit in my program and then reorganize everyone...

[crazy4chins]

I think the biggest thing I have learned is that some lines don't cross well. Both lines may be good lines but the just don't click. I usually make small adjustments after shows. But I try not to make any major adjustments. I don't want to through the baby out with the bath water. With a small number of chins I have to take into consideration there age and condition when shown as well as who the judge was. Very rarely if ever are my best animals in there best condition when the show date comes around.

[Chingal]

What lines have you found do not cross well?How often do you guys out cross breed your lines?For a coupe genrerations isn't it good to have some chins in common? I know a few of us hobbyists have run into the problem of getting chins a few years ago and finding they were ALL very closely related..That is why I took mine back to primarily standards and whites after the show as I realized I did not need so much recessive mutation that is so closely related??
I doubt with this show Iwill sell, maybe reorganize a few as my numbers are so small now if I sold any I would be selling ones I cannot replace.I may however look for some good animals to put with ones who need new mates..

[Carlee36]

This is a very good thread. Lots of interesting information. I live in an area where there are no shows, not even close to me. I would love to have the benefit of attending a show and to learn from that experience. In the meantime it's threads like this that can help me learn about improving my stock.
I have reorganized a lot in the past year trying to improve on my herd and have sold off many chins that I started with relising that they weren't the best quality for breeding. I don't show but would still love to be able to produce show quality chins. I have bought in several new animals that are a huge improvement over what I had before.
I now appreciate the value of good herd improvement Standard greys and have acquired several.

I am a bit confused though due to conflicting information. On another forum there is a debate going on about Ebonies. Since this is a mutation I am currently working with I would like to know your opinions on this idea.
It was stated on this other forum that only Homo Ebonies are recognised as true Ebonies and anything less than a medium Hetero Ebony should be discarded as a wasteful breeding. It was also stated that Homo Ebonies should only be bred to good quality Standard greys and only the darkest offspring from this breeding be kept for further breeding and the rest should be considered useless.
It was also stated that breeding a herd improvement Standard grey to anything less than say a dark hetero Eb should also be considered useless.
Keeping in mind that was from a U.K. based forum and that their show rules regarding Ebonies are somewhat different than my understanding of showing Ebonies in the U.S.
I guess I could see the point of not breeding a light Hetero Eb to a herd improvement Standard, but even a medium hetero Eb can be a beautiful animal and I don't feel should be considered a waste. I have seen some gorgeous Std Eb carriers, should they not be considerd herd improvement for the Ebony mutation if say they were bred back to a Homo Ebony especially if they are the offspring of a herd improvement Standard and a Homo Eb in the first place? I just have a hard time considering them as a waste if they are indeed quality animals. What are your thoughts on this matter? Sorry if this doesn't really belong here. I'm just trying to get my mind around this way of thinking.

Carleen:confused:

[JAGS]

In a nut shell, some animals are meant to be shown and some are better off just being used as breeding stock. Some of my best breeders that throw a good deal of my show animals would never make it on the show tables themselves. Of course you also need to know when its best to just cull certain animals out of the herd completly.