Breeding pet store chins

[smokeyrd]

okay, I've been hearing alot of people say that under no condition should you breed a pet store chin. I am wondering if theres any real reason for this or if its just a preference that the general community supports. I personally see no problem with pet store chins if you are simply breeding for pets. If you ever want to go beyond simply having a chin to enjoy and want to show it, then certainly, by all means, get a breeders chin with good lines. With what im planning on (mainly companionship and kits for some of our friends) I dont see a real problem with it. Is there a reason for the strong views against pet store chins? I figure, every pet store chin came from a breeder anyhow. I do understand the views against buying pet store chins, however. Our first chin was a pet store chin and I saw how he was treated in the store. 1.5x1.5x1 cell with little attention. My girlfriend got him as a x-mas gift after her going in and playing with him for roughly 4-5 months. other than her, he really got no attention and i felt bad for him, so i dont support the buying of pet store chins. I guess what i really need to hear is someone say that there is proof that as a generality, pet store chins cause problems when bred and their offspring dont hold up well against the test of time. If there isnt something like that, then I must assume that the entirety of the view against pet store chins is similar to that of small town gossip clubs views against big city people that move into the country. That is, they dont belong here, they never will, and no matter how good they are or how nice they are, we arent going to recognise their positive traits. Before i get my head cut off, I intended this post to be inflammatory to get people worked up, but also to make them think about their personal views versus fact and if I seriously offended anyone, I apologise ahead of time.

[beckie467]

You haven't offended me. I understand your questioning with breeding a pet store chin. And I also understand your way of thinking that if you are never going to show/sale your chin it shouldn't matter if they are pet store chins or not. Ok this is the #1 problem with pet store chin breeding. You do not know their background. Meaning you have no idea who the parents were, what traits they carry, what diseases the chins could carry in their genes. The big thing is, yeah their are breeders who sometimes sell their chins to a petstore (personally I would never do that seeing how those chins are treated) BUT it does happen. But also you have to keep in mind, you've never seen where the petstore chin came from, you don't know anything about your chin except it's color (and most pet stores can't even get that right) and you won't even know their age. I have yet to see a petstore know the correct age of one of their chins. Basically the reason people say do not breed petstore chins is b/c you don't know enough about the chin to know what kind of babies you are going to have. I mean some people don't mind taking the risk, but others do. I mean if both of your chins are from a petstore who's to say they weren't purchased from the same breeder and in some way are related? I mean there are a lot of questions you need to think about when breeding pet store chins. The truth is if you want a companion and that's all you are looking to gain from breeding your chins, then go for it b/c I'm sure to you the risks seem too small to worry about or you wouldn't have posted this thread. All I am saying is be careful. Not knowing your chins history could cause genetic problems. But with any breeding of any 2 animals you are going to have risks no matter how good of a breeder you are. I am just telling you that the odds of you having risks are greater with petstore chins than if you got them from a breeder. B/c breeders research their chins, and some breeders have been doing it for a long time and researching their chins lines to make sure they get the best kit they can. I am leery of the unknown when it comes to the petstore chins. Not knowing their background well enough to breed them would scare me. But if you feel that the risk is worth taking then that is your decision to make. I don't have all the technical answers and proof that you are looking for, but I thought I would share my opinion. Hopefully one of the breeders that has done this for a while can get more technical with you. Good luck on your decision.

[GunningChins]

You are right to say that petstore chins are often from breeders, however these chins are generally brought in by breeders who for one reason or another do not want them in their herd.
To put it bluntly these are the rejects - the bottom of the pile. (If they weren't the breeder would sell the animal direct or keep it to breed from)

Therefore petstore chins are often of poor quality and may carry hereditary problems which will show up in the kits.
At the end of the day I don't think it matters WHY you are breeding the chins (pets/breeders/show), by breeding from chins with no known background you are increasing the risk that the chin in question will pass on an hereditary condition to their offspring - since you cannot know that is has a clear health history (unlike with many pedigree chins)

Even if you are the only person who will ever own the kits - they will still suffer if they have inherited a condition such as malloclusion. Who owns them or for what purpose makes no difference to the animal.
At the end of the day - yes some petstore chins are just fine and will have happy, healthy good sized offspring - however just as many if not more with pass problems to their kits. Is it worth the risk? No - I dont think so - not when there are so many chins from strong, healthy lines to choose from.

Finally, one must consider exactly why that chin is in a petstore. These stores pay far less for the chins than another hobby breeder would - essentially if a chin was suitable for breeding it would be sold as such, making ranchers/breeders more money in the process.

*Hops off the soapbox*

[kryssy]

I have taken in way too many rescues who have been pet store chins, who eventually got bored with, given the wrong food, others who had kits nobody wanted, other who had kits by their own sibling because the store didn't know if it was a boy or girl. If you want chins for family or friends or as companions why not take in a rescued chin and give it a safe loving home instead of breeding more that will someday possibly need to be rescued because it is unwanted.

[tunes]

Actually, loads of large breeders here in the US sell chins to pet stores (retail) through brokers. I'm sure there are show winners that slipped through the cracks, at six weeks of age, that end up in pet stores. These breeders have contracts that have to be met - in other words I know of someone who has to provide X amount per month or be in breech of a legal, signed contract. So - They need to provide the broker with 100 chinchillas a month. What happens when he doesn't have enough babies? He pulls whatever he has to fill the bill. Yes, it happens. I've seen it first hand. So saying that ALL pet store chins are nothing more than the crap from the bottom of the barrel of large breeders is not necessarily true. I can't believe that even the most experienced breeder can be 100% correct in predicting the quality of a six week old.

That being said - Here are my own personal reasons for not breeding pet store chins. One - the chances are they "may" not be the best quality and that's not what I want for my chins. You also have absolutely no way of knowing what you are breeding to what - are they brother and sister? Father and daughter? Mother and son? If someone is going to line breed, it ought to be a large breeder, with a large pool to choose from, and the experience (big emphasis on experience here) and knowledge to do it. I am not talking about someone with seven or eight chins, I'm talking about someone with 500+.

The other big issue is history. You cannot possibly know the history of your chin. Is there fur chewing in their lines? Is there malocclusion? These are issues that have to be important to you whether you breed for pet or for show. If they aren't important, you aren't much of a breeder.

Lastly - I refuse to support pet stores. Their care of chinchillas is generally awful and their living conditions frequently dismal at best. By buying from them I am perpetuating the idea that Hey! These little guys are popular! Let's bring in even MORE of them to stuff in aquariums and inappropriate habitats.

[JENNABENA]

Well, I have another question on this matter and would love some more help with this. It's another spin from the original question. I have a male chinchilla that I did buy from a Petstore who is the sweetest thing in the world. I do know who the breeder was and that the breeder does breed for show. The male chinchilla that I bought is a wonderful Brevi type, truly beautiful (maybe a little prejudice with love thrown in). He was one of those chins that the breeder threw in to meet a contract like Tunes mentioned. I am having such a struggle in deciding wether or not to breed him to my pedigree chins because for all the looking around that I have done I have not found another one who carries the traits as well as he does. I have been researching the breeder and do know that he has good healthy lines. He was the first chin I ever bought and at the time didn't realize all the resources for breeders. I would love some help with this decision. I truly want to approach this the right way and would appreciate any advice you can give me on this. :spin:

[daddysbuttons]

I would just like to say that not all pet stores are all that bad. My local feed store called Bowmans is wounderful with their chins. They have two people that work with just the chins. Every time I go in there the cages are spotless and the chins are so friendly. The chins are caged in the best cages that they sell there and there is one for females and one for males. I got to talking with one of the guys that takes care of the chins and he told me that there was a male there once that didn't get along with others real well and was kind of scared of people..... so what do you think this guy did? He took the little guy home for a coulpe of weeks made him a little more soical and then brought him back. :D


I just wanted to take up for some of the stores, but not all because I have seen my share of bad ones that don't know anything about chins!

[EyesOfTexasChin]

Well I can approach this first hand...
When I first got into chins and breeding I started with "pet store chins". After learning that this was not kosher and learned of diseases and pedigrees, I culled some. NOT ALL, As I kept the ones I felt of were better quality.

By the time I realized this I was already attached to some, and they were well bonded. So I kept them together. I currently have Gizmo and Gidget, and Mariah (non-breeder) and Mikey.

Now, I do not advocate this but cannot change my past or mistakes. However... it is correct that some very nice chins slip through the cracks as I feel I have 3 of them (Mariah is 1200g, but not the best quality and is a non-breeder).
But Gizmo and Gidget are 4 years old, very healthy and produce GORGEOUS what I consider possible show quality chins. Both are very round, and Gizmo has supurb fur and Gidget has average. Their kits always have supurb fur, short ears, wide neck, blocky, good color, and get LARGE.
I have attached one picture of one (that unfortunately I lost due to a UTI) that was 10mos. old. I have also attached a picture of Sassy, their latest that is 664g at 7mos. old.
Mikey is also a gorgeous TOV Dark Ebony. Picture Attached.

I can tell you this, Gizmo and Gidget may have no pedigree but their kits will not be sold as "pet quality" as they are not just pet quality simple due to having no further background on parents. I will also not discourage people from breeding their offspring. As I will be breeding Sassy, then her kits will have nearly a full pedigree (parents and grandparents).

I have gotton many chins from ranchers that were sold as "quality" and were not, or have little to no background or pedigree information. I have also encountered ranchers that have been told of maloclussion that was by the pedigree possibly from too much line breeding, and the parents are not pulled from breeding and the claim that it could be within the lines was denied and not further researched.

I have also seen many many chins with FULL pedgrees from reputable breeders malocludde, furchew etc.

If you are breeding chins, no matter the "quality" or pedigree you are taking a risk on the mothers life for birthing reasons, you are taking a risk on possible genetic illness such as maloclussion. Because there is no clause that 100% states that just because the breeder CLAIMS (even if reputable) there was no KNOWN (might I strongly emphasize KNOWN) genetic faults or bad traits within the line, and the chin has a full pedigree that your risk is lowered considerably of it happening in current or future generations.

The only thing pedigrees do is HELP ease a breeders mind that they have GOOD healthy chins, but does not garuntee this. And they help to trace the lines if something pops up. They do not do anything else for us.

Now, would I in the future breed MORE chins without pedigrees? No. But that is because it is what the people want. The ability to trace lineage. Not the ability to ensure nothing will go wrong with their chins.

If these were dogs, which might I add have EXTENSIVE pedigrees... good breeders provide medical records from past lineage, disposition (related to if they were field dogs, etc.) also there is tests that are done for hip dysplagia etc. These types of pedigrees give you a better comfort level that your chances are higher that you dog will be healthy. But it does not 100% garuntee you of anything yet again. Good example, there was no dysplagia in my service dog Nellie's lineage and there was PROOF of this with test results. However she has dysplagia.

Chin backgrounds unfortunately are nothing more than id numbers, color, and if your LUCKY maybe weight, show winnings, and name.

It is funny how so many people think knowing a chins background is gospel in knowing if they have a good healthy animal or that it increases your chance that they are good and healthy, as it does not.

We are all rolling the dice everytime we breed chins.

[dondeb562]

your larger chain pet stores get most of thier chins from fur ranches and as another post mentioned "brokers". The large chain pet stores generally have one small animal vender that supplies to most of the state they are in and some surrounding states as well. Most of the ones I have seen have nice fur and good size. Very skittish though.
The only thing is you do not know if there is any genetic defects in thier lines when you get them from the pet stores. Even if you ask the stores to find out where they came from and such, they can't give you the details. That is why it is not advised to breed pet store chins. You do not know if there is any tooth problems or heart murmurs that you would be breeding into those babies as well.

[#1CHINFREAK]

I got burned big time by a pet store. I bought a BEAUTIFUL predominately white male that was 3 months old. I purchased him with the understanding that I wanted to breed him and that the breeder would call me to give me his pedigree. After a week, I didn't hear from the breeder, so I called the pet shop. He said he couldn't give out the phone number and that if the breeder wanted to speak with me, he would call. I never heard from the breeder.

When the chin hit 5 months he started fur chewing. He died at 7 months.

I was hoping that I found that "needle in the haystack". All I ended up with was a huge bill and a hole in my back yard. I will never buy another chin from a pet store.

If you can speak with the breeder, then depending on what they say-go ahead. If you can't, proceed at your (and the future offspring's) own risk. As for selling chins bred from pet store chins, as long as you are honest I don't see a problem. You may have a hard time selling kits with only partial pedigrees to other breeders, and informed pet owners.