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Steph
06-29-2005, 12:02 AM
Jenn's thread on her sick little girl has given me an idea. I would really like to see everyone share their worst possible hedgie experience. Mostly in breeding but rescues and pets would be absolutely fine too. I am hoping this will help others prepare for the absolute worst. :)

I'll start...

In November we had a first time mom deliver a litter of 5 babies. On day 10 I decided to risk a real peek in to the igloo. There were two babies who'd been killed and thrown out already so I wasn't sure how many remained from my random views in to the igloo when mom was eating, etc...

When I did get a look I noticed 3 babies, one was about a quarter of the size of the others and I just sensed there was a problem. I immediately picked the baby up to check him/her over and realized she had a severely damaged leg. It appeared to have been chewed off, presumably during delivery and was seriously necrotic.

In all my breedings I'd never dealt with anything like this. My first instinct was to be just devastated. Then I realized what a miracle she was. How had she survived?? Why hadn't mom seen her as a weak link?? Why hadn't her siblings forced her out?? So I decided she obviously was supposed to live and she had the will to do so. In the wild she would NEVER have survived, she was an Albino which have shorter life spans anyway, and she was a real threat to the safety of the entire nest.

I phoned the vet and several breeders and we just didn't know how to approach this. Taking a 10 day old baby out in 30 degree weather when they are already compromised is a serious risk. So in the end the vet told me to clean up the stump and get a better look.

I soaked her (turned out to be a female btw) leg in a mixture of peroxide and warm water, tried to clean it up without really making it sore, and get a better look at it. When it was cleaned up the necrotic portions fell away and a nice pink stump remained in almost all areas but there was still some necrosis needing to come off. Surgery was not an option for her at this point so it was a wait and see sort of thing. I put neosporin on her leg and snuggled her dry and then put her back in with mom. At that point I started removing the bigger babies (both boys) on a 2 hour rotating basis to allow Andra (thanks to Auntie Brenda she now had a name that means Hope) time alone with mom to nurse.

The next day I was again devastated to see her mom had chewed the remainder of her stump off sometime in the night (I didn't mess with Andra again that night just the boys). I assume she didn't like the treatments we used and wanted to clean Andra herself.

I again consulted the vet and several breeders and at this point her stump actually looked quite good to me but I didn't really know what to look for, no jagged bone fragments were apparent, and it was nice and pink and not bleeding or oozing pus so we decided to just leave her for mom to care for. In this time I cleaned her cage 3 times a day and NEVER allowed any feces or urine to build up in the cage which was a real challenge. I was really serious about keeping her as clean as possible. I tried liners but she ended up more messy with the liners since she wasn't as mobile as her brothers so in the end we went back to shavings and just hoped it was the right choice.

The vet didn't want to attempt antibiotics on a baby that age that was already compromised by a severe trauma so we again decided to wait and see.

It was decided that if she lived (and she was not given good odds) we would take a really close look at the leg and her overall health when she reached 4 weeks old or a certain weight and see if she required future surgeries, antibiotics, etc...

I tried to not hold out hope for her but in this time I snuggled her, loved her, talked to her and her mom a lot, and prayed. She didn't open her eyes with her brothers, she opened them at about 3 weeks old and at that point they were very milky and she was not reactive to any movement or light and we determined she was blind. She remained a lot smaller than her brothers and was behind them in almost all developmental milestones. I continued to pray and love her...

When she reached 4 weeks she was still smaller than her brothers and wasn't even trying to venture from the nest like they were. I was finally able to take her to the specialist in another town. He was AMAZED at her leg. It was healthy, healing wonderfully, and would not require surgery. She had also begun to really scoot around using her other 3 legs, she wasn't as quick as her brothers but she was mobile. :)

Aside from her eyesight and her size she was overall healthy, heart, lungs, etc... were all fine so we did not give her antibiotics at that time.

At 7 weeks I completely removed the boys from the cage and left Andra with her mother (up until this point they were rotated on a 2 hour basis and we NEVER wavered from this, it was 2 hours without fail), she continued to nurse sporadically until she was completely cut off by mom at around 8 weeks (mom did this not me). I think this gave her the boost she needed to start gaining at a more regular interval. She started to really catch up to her brothers at this point size wise.

At 8 weeks I quit praying that she would make it and started to really breathe and thank God for pulling her through.

Those were by far the longest 8 weeks of my life. I cried all the time, I would snuggle Andra and just cry. I blamed myself for her injury, her suffering, etc... Was I doing the right thing?? Should we be more pro-active with treatments, etc...?? In that time I built a bond with both Andra and her mother that will NEVER be broken. Aside from that my entire family, my friends, and my 5-year-old son, learned a lesson in hope, prayer, and nature.


I truly think if we'd have tried to treat her away from mom she would have died. I have no idea why she wasn't cannabalized or thrown out but someone, somewhere, knew she was a fighter.

Andra is a permanent member of our family of course, she is loved and spoiled and truly has become my son's hedgie. He even plans to show her at the upcoming Mile High Show where we are certain she will win top honors. Aside from that we routinely take her on educational outings as she's just very sweet and her story is a great one to tell.

I took her to Denver for the Hedgehog Day Tea in February and no one knew it was her until I told them. She has barely any stump left so she tucks up what she has and just goes. She can keep up with and even outrun any of my hedgies. She is a perfect adult size of 320 grams and a beautiful Albino girl, she wheels, hunts down food, tubes, plays with toys, snuggles her beanie baby, anoints, eats, and poops like any other hedgie. I don't think it's possible for me to love or cherish her any more than I do.

Also, at about 3 months old we noticed she started responding to light flashes, etc... now we believe she can see just fine.

We believe she was just a bit underdeveloped either as a result of her injury or her injury was a result of underdevelopment, we'll never know, but she definitely taught us several very valuable lessons.

Nancy
06-29-2005, 07:53 AM
Great idea Steph. I feel this is a topic that needs to be brought up often just so people who are considereing breeding know just what they are getting into and can be prepared. I started a similiar thread a few months back.
http://www.chins-n-quills.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72751

I'm heading out right now but will post updates on my problems later on.

Titanium
06-29-2005, 09:44 AM
I've only had one litter (which was unexpected). My pet store hedgie Bridget had a litter the day we brought her home. She was a great mom. She stayed in the nest and nursed her two babies for ten days despite them being inbred and her being in a new and strange place.

On that tenth day (which also happened to be my birthday), one of the hoglets fell out of the nest overnight, When I woke up and checked on them (temperature, etc..) he was lying on his back just outside the nest. I wrapped him a a fleece blankie (from Bridget's cage) and held him under the heat lamp to bring up his temperature. He made a faint squeaky noise, and then twitched, so I put him back in with his mom.

After school, when I got home to check on them, he was out of the nest again, but in two pieces. Mom had apparently thought he wasn't strong enough to survive. The other little one (who was born with three legs), was also dead the next morning.

I know a lot of breeders have cannibalized litters like this, but as it was my first (and only) litter and they were killed on my birthday, it was more upsetting.

Lauren
06-29-2005, 05:30 PM
My worst time was at the beginning of this year. It was Rosie's last litter, she had one baby. Later that day I noticed that she wasn't doing well, pushing with nothing coming out and she looked like she was in so much pain. We called our normal vet but they weren't opened. So we called Tufts (around 50ish minutes away maybe more, don't really remember) and they said to rush her over right away with the one baby (which was still alive, she had been feeding up until they took her in for xrays). The xrays showed three more babies inside of her, they went right into surgery. Right before they went in they thought that they lost her because she was in such bad shape. Turns out that the three babies had rotted and died much earlier into the pregnancy, if we had waited any longer they said she would not have made it. They were shocked that Ali (the surviving baby male) had made it. We left her there over night and took the baby home. Calling Kelly a friend at Hamor Hollow to see if she had a foster mom, she did so we drove over to there which was around 45ish minutes. We left him there over night with her but the foster mom did not take him so we drove back there the next day when we got Rosie. The surgery ended up costing us $1300.00 which I did not have the money for so my parents paid for it until I got the money within the next month and a half. Then we had to buy Rosie's medication and food for Ali. We handfed Ali and it was so much hard work, and I did not do it alone/ could not do it alone. He's still alive and is five months old (amazing to think he's this old). That is by far the worst experience I have had. Handfeeding is one of the hardest things I will ever have to do, thats why I always tell people if they can LEAVE the mom and babies ALONE!!! Their survival rate is much higher with their moms than you.

I have also had babies die on me. Just monday I had one female give birth to her first litter of six babies. One of the six was a stillborn and now the surviving five are doing great. The other female had one baby on monday and she ate most of it (I had to take it out and there was only a back leg and tail). Im still waiting a bit longer to see if she'll have any more since she still feels like there might be some babies in there.

illinidairychic
06-29-2005, 05:49 PM
First off I think if the negatives are pointed out that a similar thread focusing on the postives should also be started.

As far as negative experiences I've had the rejected litter with my second litter. The hoglets all died and it was a learning experience to say the least.

I also rescue and I think that can be even more heart breaking in the long run. Seeing hedgehogs in situations that are less then minimal is horrible. I currently have one that is showing early signs of WHS and have her son as well. It's going to be a long haul with the two of them and I refuse to let them out of my care.

With any animal there is difficulties, there are risks and if someone is too stubborn to listen to other's advice, reality will hit them when something goes wrong.

I don't like to dwell on the downside so I'll leave my post at that.

lil22
06-29-2005, 07:24 PM
First off I think if the negatives are pointed out that a similar thread focusing on the postives should also be started.


Well...I think the whole reason for this thread is that the positives are obvious...cute babies, more hedgies, etc...the negatives are what people DON'T necessarily think about. We don't really need to start a pro breeding thread...I just think it's unnecessary...that's JMO.

Nancy
06-29-2005, 07:56 PM
Well...I think the whole reason for this thread is that the positives are obvious...cute babies, more hedgies, etc...the negatives are what people DON'T necessarily think about. We don't really need to start a pro breeding thread...I just think it's unnecessary...that's JMO.

Exactly!

illinidairychic
06-29-2005, 07:59 PM
I'm not saying that it's pro breeding necessarily (and please don't read things deeper then face value), but happy out comes from tramatic experiences. The upsides of things. Even just the lessons learned. Learning from mistakes and letting others know those mistakes are going to give good advice to novice breeders and others that have unexpected litters.

Ododad
06-29-2005, 08:09 PM
I have a question for Steph. You stated that Albinos have a shorter life span. I haven't been able to find anything to substanutiate that. I like to keep accurate information in my hedgie file so could you please post a link to where ever you got that information? Thank you. :)

lil22
06-29-2005, 08:35 PM
I'm not saying that it's pro breeding necessarily (and please don't read things deeper then face value), but happy out comes from tramatic experiences. The upsides of things. Even just the lessons learned. Learning from mistakes and letting others know those mistakes are going to give good advice to novice breeders and others that have unexpected litters.

You have a great point. I mean, I don't think anyone's saying it's all bad. I just kind of think this thread covers that though...like, lessons people have learned from these bad situations, and people are posting *some* good things that have come out of the bad...like how Lauren's baby that she had to hand feed is still alive after 5 months and doing well.

But anyways, like I said this is just my opinion and you can most certainly start a new, more positive thread. Totally up to you, and I'm sure it'll have great info in it too. Any info and past experiences we can share with each other I'm sure will help emmensely with future breedings and care for all hedgies. :)