the size debate revisited

[CHINCHILDREN]

This is an old ‘issue’ and a real ‘pet peeve’ of mine, namely the quest for bigger and bigger chins!

I know where the push for bigger chins comes from. It comes from the pelt market where for obvious reasons a bigger pelt is more desirable (bigger pelt = fewer needed for the garment, easier to match etc. etc.)

I also know from other species that any time a species was selectively bred for extreme size (large OR small) health problems resulted (orthopedic and/or others.)

Now, in the pelt market no one cares if the over-sized animal would have ultimately developed health problems later in life as the result of being larger than it should, since it will be pelted at an early age.
With the animals we breed, health and longevity are always said to be first and foremost in the list of things we breed for. That being the case, WHY, OH WHY, do so many of us aspire to have bigger and bigger chins???

Yes, I know that size DOES come into play at shows but it does not override all other aspects UNLESS all other things are equal.
I showed a white male I bred at York this last April. He is quite small (under 600 gars. though he is young.) He was up against the white male that won nationals earlier that month. My boy was almost ‘a chin’ smaller than the Nationals winner (375 gars smaller) but he ended up ‘beating’ the National’s winner due to his superior fur quality and size. I will say that even though my boy is not large he does have very nice conformation. The judges said that if the other chin had ‘half the fur and color’ my boy had he WOULD have won but they just could not overlook the better fur and color.
(BTW, a couple of ranchers at York were VERY interested in buying my chin dispite his 'peunney' size.)
So size is not everything EVEN on the show table and I personally think we are doing the species a disservice by trying to breed it larger and larger.

[CTChin]

Well said Shelli :)

[SHChins]

I think it is more of an ego thing to say you have the biggest chins LOL! I have a small male that is not quite a year old but he has everything else going for him so I am going to use him as a breeder.

I said it once and I will say it again even LARGE female chins can have delivery problems. Size is LAST on my list when I buy a chin for breeding. They have to have density and clarity first and formost above size and yes I strive for small ears and have for years and will continue to.

[Chinchified]

I look for fur density/clarity, build, face shape, and thickness of neck. However I am also somewhat picky about the temperment of the parents. In what I have observed, A docile cuddly couple with throw docile cuddly kits. Or maybe it is just how I handle my chins. I wouldn't turn down a slightly spazzy chin if it were gorgeous but I would definately have to pair the chin with a calmer companion. Size is rarely something I look at unless it is a female and she is infantasmily small.

[CTChin]

I look for fur density/clarity, build, face shape, and thickness of neck. However I am also somewhat picky about the temperment of the parents. In what I have observed, A docile cuddly couple with throw docile cuddly kits. Or maybe it is just how I handle my chins. I wouldn't turn down a slightly spazzy chin if it were gorgeous but I would definately have to pair the chin with a calmer companion. Size is rarely something I look at unless it is a female and she is infantasmily small.

I've had not very nice adults produce some of the nicest babies ever. I know this because their owner's keep in touch. My "secret?" I handle the babies every day from day one. :winkgrin:

[SHChins]

I have had both, one spaz parent and the other layed back have docile kits and then again I have had 2 sweet parents have devil kits LOL!

I have also handfed kits from day one and it makes no difference on temperment. They develope their own personalities.

On a side note I do not go by weight of an adult chin I go by how the chin is built in size. The looks of a chins weight can be decieving.

[Sketch]

I've got some smaller chins that produce awesome kits as far as overall physical quality in confirmation, personality and coats. But My best producer is a male who happens to be about the size of a midyear weanling. I personally like my chins 650 - 900 grams but I've got some nice 1000+ gram females [From pelting farms] that I pair up with my littler males.. I get kits that size up mid range and get the nice confirmation and coats. I don't feel the bigger the better but I like my animals in a range.. If one is too small I size their kits up.

Most reason for doing this is because I've got a really nice male, he is small and has a tendency to throw kits on the smaller side.. I paired him with a 600 gram female and the kits matured around 500.. Alittle smaller than my preference. Especially for the females.. I worry about smaller females being bred. So I aim to produce females and males that I find usable and that I'm comfortable with in case of a 4-6 numbered litter. Its just a preference. I've sold some outrageous nice females that I've just been too concerned about breeding for their weight, size, but had great confirmation and coat quality.

[HedgeMom]

Did you ever stop to think about what harm could come to a small chinchilla if the owner knows didley squat about breeding?

It's one thing for an experienced chinkeeper/rancher/breeder to breed a small female since I'd assume they'd have a pedigree, know the breeding background and bought her from a bloodline that doesn't traditionally have breeding problems. I'd also assume they'd be watching for dytocia and have the wherewithal to deal with it.

It's another thing totally to say "sure it's ok to breed a 400 g female" to someone who has no idea of the genetics behind the animal, has no experience and hasn't a clue what their goal in breeding is.

Yes, size is a pelt issue, but even more so, since the large chinchilla genetics are in the gene pool, the chance that a small female bred to a small male will deliver large kits is pretty good and darn dangerous in the hands of someone who knows nothing.

If common sense were common, we wouldn't see posts like this, posted on another forum on the 29th of June

hello
I have a female chinchilla, on the 13th June she had a baby which was stillborn, ever since she is not eating and today i noticed that she had a lump of poo stuck to her bum, i cleaned if off with water and noticed that under the poo she has a yellow liquid comin from her bum. she has gone very thin and im quite worried about her, she sleeps a lot and likes cuddles which is not like her she is usually wild and running around all the time.
hope you can help
thanks
How can someone who is breeding chinchillas not recognize a medical emergency? Not seek medical attention for TWO WEEKS and instead ask on the Internet about it?

That's the reason people should caution against amateurs breeding small females. Not for any other but to help prevent another stupid pet owner from killing an innocent animal.

[crazy4chins]

Actually the huge push as of late for bigger chins isn't based on ranchers or longtime breeders . They recognized long ago that to get huge chins you have to sacrifice to many other qualities. It is the misunderstanding that size and weight are the same thing. and you can tell size by using a scale. The "Brevi" influence that is so desired by many hobby breeders is a recent development. very few chins prior to 10 years ago had any brevi. influence.

[SpringChins]

Size is rarely something I look at unless it is a female and she is infantasmily small.
What would you consider infantasmily small?

I ask because different people have different answers to this question (and because I'm just plain curious).

~June~