quality or fat chins?

[Jyskchinchilla]

Hi all... :)

We have, on the danish chindebatesite a discussion about this subject.
Is a chin at 1 kilo fat or quality?
What do you think overthere in the states?

I personal think that there is a huge diffrence between a good quality chin and a fat chin... a 800 gram chin could be of very good quality, but if it's meant to wheigh 500 from nature you can't exactly call it quality or can you? :dunno: ;)

The discussion goes on breeders who sells "quality" chins that wheighs too much... I have seen some pictures of chinchillas for sale where the owner/breeder has wroten at the end.. very very fine big wheight 900 grams... and then you can see the wulks on it's neck... so the neck we all want on a quality chin is replaced by fat?

I think this is a very good subject to be discussed in this fora.. I'm looking forward to hear your oppinions on this. :)

Sincierly
Louise - Denmark :)

[crazy4chins]

You can't judge the quality of a chin with a scale. weight is not size and never will be.
You can't tell how tall some one is with a scale. You can't tell what size a chin is with a scale either. Size is conformation,not weight

[x_maddy]

The only way I could answer this is by saying yes, I think a larger chin makes a better quality chin. The reason why is because the whole idea of breeding is to improve the species. The larger, and essentailly healthier chins are ideal. That`s why they are bred above smaller chins. Lani told me that for shows, "Fat is a great color on chins".

[ninajeanette2]

we dont breed fatty chinnies here,lol

[equus_peduus]

I think there's a couple things going on. I'm not a breeder, so this is simply my perception of a subject I haven't specifically looked into.

As far as I can tell, the show standard is one which promotes an animal that will give the largest pelt. This means that animals should be large in size (going to use crazy4chins' terminology) and as fat as possible so that the most possible surface area is obtained for the size of the chin.

However, in some animals, obesity is linked to decreased fertility, which is obviously not desired in a breeding animal. There are also other possible health consequences to obesity, not all of which are consistant across species, so I'm not going to try to figure out which apply to chins.

Further, increased size may have a negative impact on health as well. Large breed dogs are susceptable to a variety of diseases that smaller dogs are not (this is not to say that small dogs don't have their own problems either...). The same goes for other animals; dogs just have one of the more dramatic differences in size (and other things) within a species. I can't offhand think of anything for horses (which are more phenotypically similar across breeds than dogs are), or I'd use them for my example (probably something exists though).

So you're working against several different measures of "quality" if you're going strictly by how big the animal is.

-Show standard wants as big and as fat as possible
-Breeder wants as big as possible but probably not too fat; big = easier birthing, but also possibly larger kits -> more difficult parturition. Larger -> more potential to win at shows.
-Breeder also wants least health problems. So not too fat, not too big, and not too small.

I don't know how large of an animal a skeleton built like a chinchilla's can handle. I don't know if we've reached that limit, or if giant chins are in the future. I don't know if maybe people will decide that a fat animal should not be a show winner, as pelting becomes less socially acceptable and/or common. I don't know if it will prove out that obesity or larger size will have negative impacts on chinchilla health, thus encouraging smaller animals.

I have seen posts by people who emphasize fur quality or color or other factors above size of the animal. I have also seen some who will not ever breed an animal under 600 grams or 500 grams or whatever their cutoff is, choosing an animal with slightly lower quality fur but larger size. Others will breed an animal that is smaller than the current show standard, but has other good qualities. Since it seems that larger size does not always come with better fur, I think that chinchilla size may increase slowly, until the animals with larger size consistantly have better fur. It seems like one indication of quality is how much it weighs, but conformation, fur quality, color, veiling, etc., also play large factors into the quality of the animal.

[CHINCHILDREN]

if size is ALL OR EVEN MOST the animal has going for it than NO IT IS NOT A QUALITY CHIN. as you know, in shows chins are judged on many atributes (fur density, strength, color, clarity etc.) when all OTHER things are equal than the bigger chin will win but size does not over-ride the other qualities we look for in a chin and should never be considered first and foremost. it is a bonous because there is such a fixation on large chins especially in the hobby community but it does not determin quality.

[Jyskchinchilla]

I agree with all of you..
:)
I know that most of us inhere agrees on what quality is... but not everyone does. :)
BUT.. I must say I have seen the first 15 chins for sale where the add says quality.. and where you are looking at a fat chin after my oppinion... And then we are back to the subject about breedes who dosn't know better!

Haven't any of you seen af fat chin for sale which is named quality?

Louise :)

[zneill84]

One of my chins is almost 700 grams, but he isn't muscular-he was in a tiny cage when I got him and has no "jumping" muscles. He's just a blob but he's getting more toned with all the running and jumping he gets to do now. My other two are almost the same weight, 556 grams each, but they are so "firm"-they have a huge cage and get to jump all the time-it really shows. They have a shape, shoulders, "waist", and haunches. jacques is just a blob

[CHINCHILDREN]

Haven't any of you seen af fat chin for sale which is named quality?

Louise :)
have seen many chins that were advertised as 'quality' for sale even though they were not. some were fat and others were not...

[HedgeMom]

Haven't any of you seen af fat chin for sale which is named quality?

Louise :)

Personally, I think it's pretty darn difficult to judge "quality" from a photo. I've seen people try on other forums and frankly it never seems to be accurate. That's why chinchilla shows are held in person where the judge can see the shape of the chinchilla, feel the weight of the chinchilla, evaluate fur length, thickness, color, texture and quality.

Are you using the word "quality" when you mean "pedigreed"? Many people sell pedigreed chinchillas who are not Grand Show Champions. They may have wonderful bloodlines and throw beautiful babies. They would be quality breeding stock. A sire and dam who have produced two Grand Show Champions would be quality in my book, no matter what they looked like.

Then again, a chinchilla could have a pedigree and be total garbage and never throw anything decent.

Chinchillas who live in smaller cages with no wheels and no free range time tend to be chubbier than chinchillas who do have wheels or free range time. There are probably a thousand posts on this forum about "I bought a ranch chin and he's losing weight". Well, ranch chinchillas do tend to lose weight when they move to a more pet-like environment. They have more to do and get more exercise.

As to whether all ranch chins are chubbier, I can't say. I've not seen every ranch chin there is. I haven't seen all that many and my statement is based on the posts and the answers I've seen here.

I also am not sure that your idea of fat and my idea of fat are the same thing. I have some pretty good size girls living here. They are healthy and active and they are not fat. But because they are in the 800-900 gram range, you might think they are. It may be that you're not comfortable with the cobby body type that a better quality chinchilla will have.

On this link are a few pictures of winning chinchillas
http://www.chinsandgliders.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5165
They are not fat. They are quality. Yet the cobby body and the wide shoulders may make you think they are fat.

Chinchillas should not look like rats. They shouldn't have rangy, lanky bodies, they aren't "runners" in body type, but more like the guys who throw shotput. Wedges. Perhaps you should try to attend a chinchilla show and see what a judge calls quality and compare it to what you think is fat.